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Post by sketch
ncc1701v wrote:With respect to the particular situation with a right turn followed by a u-turn, I would put in a small connector so you can have complete instructions. If I'm from out of town and I know I need to head south, I would like to hear "turn right to some road north / some road south", instead of just "turn right to some road north".
While it would be excellent, it would also require some hackneyed map editing to be truly useful (i.e., telling you N or S, not both). Otherwise, you'd still get the "N/S" instruction even if you were just turning right, which wouldn't be any more helpful, or at least not enough to justify adding nonintuitive connectors.
sketch
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ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
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Post by sketch
After my most recent visit to Michigan, I noticed one thing I'd like to change before committing to a rule.

IMO a second "to" should be added after the slash. For example, "to Metro Pkwy E / to Gratiot Ave S".

The reasoning: the first "to" is not spoken and is included in every ramp or ramp-like segment to differentiate it from the road you're going to (when using the Select Entire Street feature, for example). So with the first proposal TTS says "Turn left, at Metro Parkway East, Gratiot Avenue South."

Every time I got such an instruction, it struck me as misleading; it sort of implies that either (1) Metro Pkwy and Gratiot are coincident, or (2) there will be a later choice between Metro and Gratiot, like on a freeway exit.

Instead, if it said "Turn left, at Metro Parkway East / to Gratiot Avenue South", that would imply that you are turning onto Metro Pkwy with the option to turn onto Gratiot later.

This is similar to freeway exit which say "TO" on the top. I used a similar principle on these two exit ramps back home. The signs for the exits say, respectively from left to right, "TO [US-61 shield]" on top and "Cleary Ave" underneath, and (2) "TO [US-90]" on top and "Deckbar Ave" underneath. [Airline is 61; Jefferson is 90.]

Since the exits are taking you directly to Cleary and Deckbar, which can respectievly take you to 61 and 90, it's more clear to say "Exit to the right, at Cleary Avenue, to US-61" and "Exit to the right, at Deckbar Avenue, to US-90", because that's the order you'll be driving in. Leaving out the second "to" makes it sound like Cleary and US-61 are the same thing, which isn't the case.

Anyway, let me know what you think.
sketch
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the guidance linked above is now almost a decade old, but the link gives me a laugh every time i see it, so it stays (:
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Post by sketch
Yeah, that's fair. I've also been thinking of changing it to "Exit: to US-61 / Cleary Ave".

Anyway, that's not related. The Michigan Left signs all list the first road first and the second road second. I did take that Cleary exit yesterday, and that second "to" was pronounced quickly but clearly; it doesn't take much extra time to rattle it out, which is good.


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ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
the guidance linked above is now almost a decade old, but the link gives me a laugh every time i see it, so it stays (:
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Post by sketch
Wow, I posted entirely the wrong permalink. Here it is: https://editor-beta.waze.com/editor/?lo ... 6,20940504

The exits on Earhart aren't numbered. Previously I'd thought it was better to do "to XXX" on unnumbered exits because it avoids the redundancy of "Exit right, at exit to XXX", instead saying "Exit right, at XXX", but now I think consistency might be more important. Although I prefer "Exit: Clearview Pkwy" rather than "Exit to Clearview Pkwy" because (1) it's more consistent with "Exit 226: Clearview Pkwy" and (2) it allows for differentiation between "Exit: to US-61 / Cleary Ave" and "Exit: US-61" for an exit that would go directly to US-61.

I posted a number of street view examples of Michigan left signs in the OP of this thread.
sketch
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Post by sketch
It does automatically remove the first "to" if there's nothing else before it. That's the principle under which entrance ramps are named, like "to I-75 S"; it'll say "Turn right, at I-75 South." Because "Turn right, at to I-75 South" would sound ridiculous.

I think the standard currently in the Wiki for unnumbered exits is "Exit to Clearview Pkwy", but I do agree, "Exit: Clearview Pkwy" is better because it allows for the difference between that and "Exit: to US-61".
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Post by sketch
It may be mentioned in the junction style guide.

I think it's that any ramp, street, or primary street coming at a less-than-45º angle from a minor or major highway or a freeway will say "exit right". Any segment coming at a less-than-45º from a street or primary street will say "stay to the right", never "exit", as will any minor, major, or freeway segment which is the same type as the street you're coming from.

I'm not sure if a lesser highway coming at less than 45º from a greater highway (e.g., minor highway coming from major highway) will give "exit" or "stay to the"; I think it's the latter.

If it's to the left, it's always "stay to the left"; there's no "exit left" currently.

Any segment coming at a more-than-45º angle from anything will be "turn right".

At any rate, "at" takes the place of "to" in every case. A segment labeled "to I-75 S" would say "Turn right, at I-75 South" just like it would say "Exit right, at I-75 South." and "Stay to the right, at I-75 South".
sketch
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Post by sketch
I'm starting to set named Michigan Left turnarounds as "ramp" type.

Rationale:
  1. Following NFC, there are a lot of major and minor highway types with labels that show up readily on the map. These labels are unquestionably clutter and should be suppressed.
  2. NJ and other areas have been using the ramp type for jughandles, which are similar to Michigan lefts in all the manners that justify the use of the ramp type for them.
Yes, it's against the specific letter of the rules, but so are jughandles. An exception was made for them by the NJ community; the MI community can make an exception for these as well.
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Post by sketch
Yes, absolutely. That's the general consensus among editors for turnarounds in general, as far as I can tell. It will be included in the Michigan left guidelines when they're committed to the Wiki.
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Post by sketch
Actually I've been doing two "turn left" instructions. It's consistent with Jason's and my U turn practice here, and although there is a turn lane, you're still making a 90° turn.

I haven't added to the wiki but I will. I've been locking every one to L5 for the time being.

As for naming directions on split roads, I've only been doing that on freeways and numbered highways (which are named as numbered highways on the Waze map). Otherwise, I fear it'll confuse address search.

I had a dream last night that Waze implemented a shield selection tool. Alas, it was all a dream.


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Post by sketch
GizmoGuy411 wrote: Ahh yes... I suppose adding the direction could be problematic. Didn't think that through!

So then in the example above, why did the route tester report show just one "turn left" instruction.

Also could you do me a favor? Could you edit (and lvl 5 lock) this PL to conform to your suggestions? I will be traveling there next Thursday and would like to field test it:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... 00&env=usa

Do dreams ever come true?
In order:

Because I did it wrong :P Down here, I make my U turns such that they say "turn left" and then nothing, because of the way they're designed—you're facing at sort of a 45º angle already when waiting to turn onto the next street. In Michigan, you're facing almost at 90º to the next street, and usually there is a light. Also, down here you're more often trying to take a quick U turn and then right onto a residential street, whereas many U turns in Michigan are set off a significant distance from the next right, and often in wider medians, giving Waze more time to rattle off instructions.

Done.

I sure hope so!
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ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
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bye bye fuelly badge! i'm an EV guy now!